Curse

xnightmythx · Jun 27, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Ok before I begin, heres my build, (Credit to Sha Noran)

Judge’s Barrage Build:
-Savage Shot
-Penetrating Attack
-Barrage {Elite}
-Judge’s Insight
-Troll Unguent
-Smite Hex
-Storm Chaser
-Ranger Variable (Pref rebirth)

Attributes:
Marksmanship: 12+1+3
Expertise: 8+1
Wilderness Survival: 5+1
Smiting Prayers: 9

Weapon: Armor penetration string, Bow max 15^50 req9,
Deathbane Grip 20%

Im not exactly sure what to make of this build. The damage seemed minimal at best. In fact, compared to the Conjure Fire barrage Build, JI was dissapointing. What kind of damage points should I be expecting out of this build? Also, is this Build meant to have at least 2 Barragers using it in order to be effective? (I.E Tombs Barrage build)

I found an article in Wiki that describes a possible damage discreptancy with Judges insight. Have you guys heard of this?

GuildWiki Anomalies wrote:
Judge's Insight says that attacks deal holy damage with 20% armor penetration. It has been experimentally verified that attacks under Judge's Insight do not ignore armor, although every other source of holy damage in the game does. There are two possibilities here: either holy damage is not armor ignoring, in which case every other skill that does holy damage has armor ignoringness as an unstated property, or attacks under Judge's Insight do not deal holy damage, in which case its skill description is wrong. In the latter case, it would be fair to say that attacks under Judge's Insight deal light damage, as both light and holy damage deal double damage to undead, and attacks under Judge's Insight have been verified to have this property.

BTW I also tried the build with Essence Bond in lew of Smite hex. The conclusion on that version was don't go with random pugs lol. It seemed to me that this version works when the team agrees that the tank will take the brunt of the damage while the monk makes sure he is still healed. In other words this needs to be planned out before hand. As it was, if the warrior was not getting hit, this skill was more of an energy burdon on me. (yes even toggleling it on and off)

I would like suggestions and opinions, especially from those who have tried this build in FOW. Also I would love to hear alternatives that have been successfull in FOW for Rangers.

Nightmyth.

Pick Me · Jun 27, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Im not exactly sure what to make of this build. The damage seemed minimal at best. In fact, compared to the Conjure Fire barrage Build, JI was dissapointing. What kind of damage points should I be expecting out of this build? Also, is this Build meant to have at least 2 Barragers using it in order to be effective? (I.E Tombs Barrage build)

I found an article in Wiki that describes a possible damage discreptancy with Judges insight. Have you guys heard of this?

GuildWiki Anomalies wrote:
Judge's Insight says that attacks deal holy damage with 20% armor penetration. It has been experimentally verified that attacks under Judge's Insight do not ignore armor, although every other source of holy damage in the game does. There are two possibilities here: either holy damage is not armor ignoring, in which case every other skill that does holy damage has armor ignoringness as an unstated property, or attacks under Judge's Insight do not deal holy damage, in which case its skill description is wrong. In the latter case, it would be fair to say that attacks under Judge's Insight deal light damage, as both light and holy damage deal double damage to undead, and attacks under Judge's Insight have been verified to have this property.

Nightmyth.

Holy Damage does ignore armor, at least from my experience. Judge's Insight is however, the exception to the rule. The reason it is the exception, is because of the 20% armor penetration. Now, if it did ignore armor, then 20% X 0 = 0, so you wouldn't notice anything at all. Use JI against undead, and you'll see the damage does increase compared to other monsters.

Skuld · Jun 27, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

It isnt holy, it's light damage

xnightmythx · Jun 28, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Holy Damage does ignore armor, at least from my experience. Judge's Insight is however, the exception to the rule. The reason it is the exception, is because of the 20% armor penetration. Now, if it did ignore armor, then 20% X 0 = 0, so you wouldn't notice anything at all. Use JI against undead, and you'll see the damage does increase compared to other monsters.

Well not entirely true. You would see some damage because of barrage, but like I said minimal. There is no doubt I was going against the undead. Wiki has a great data base for this class of enemy. I'm going to try it again so I can post hard numbers.

priapism18 · Jun 28, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

I always run a barrage/JI build in FOW and vs the skeletons I hit between 70 to 120 with barrage give or take. Its not out of the ordinary for see a 200+ hit. I typicially bring a perfect 20/20 hornbow and a 15^50 flat/longbow.

Sha Noran · Jun 28, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

GRRRR I just posted and it DIDN'T count it. Sigh.

First, w00t for the build getting some play. It's a good one.

Now, as far as Essence Bond goes, you're exactly right; PuGs are generally a no-no. You'll definately need to have a Tank with more than goo between his ears to run it effectively. Its ideal for any time you'll have a Tank that's almost certain to have agro, good examples being a 55 Monk tank or back in the day when running a item-holding Tank. It's definately still doable now with a Warrior tank, but as stated you'll need a good one... PuGs might not be worth taking the chance.

As for JI itself, no, it does not and was never expected to ignore armor, or it would not have the property of Armor Penetration. There is no type of damage in particular that ignores armor all the time... there are some skills that deal the damage directly and therefore ignore armor, but that's unrelated to the type it's dealing (i.e. Obsidian Flame deals armor-ignoring damage, but that doesn't mean all Earth damage ignores armor).

The main advantage to using this build over a Conjure build is the versatility it gives you through your /Monk secondary. The opportunity to bring a hard rez alone nearly makes it worth it, but there are plenty of other options also, i.e. Smite Hex/Mend Ailment. Smite Hex is a great removal skill even when not spec'd into Smiting, but since you are, you can also toss it around as a source of some serious damage. In the absolutely ideal situation, your Tank will have all of the agro, giving you the chance to Essence Bond him for your energy, and hit him with Smite Hex to not only help with the Monk's removal but also to deal considerable damage.

This build deals quite a bit of damage when used in the right situations, and in particular absolutely tears apart the Undead. In FoW, for example (as priapism18 pointed out), you should be dealing easily 100+ damage per arrow to the Skeletal army.

xnightmythx · Jun 28, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Tried the build again last night. I swaped out my old bow for an eternal I had 15^50 max, deathbanegrip 20%, and 20/19 string (cause I got it for 1k

)

I avg. 100 hp! I couldn't Belive it! The highest spike I saw was 194! Had me a serious Nerdgasm!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Now, as far as Essence Bond goes, you're exactly right; PuGs are generally a no-no.

I thought so. My next move will be to try Essence Bond with with my Guildies. We have a 55 Monk that takes the hit in UW. Perfect! Muahahaha.

Do you guys think this build is more lethal with a short bow instead?

My Eternal has 2.4 refire rate, 80' , .5 sec to target.

Nightmyth

Sha Noran · Jun 29, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Do you guys think this build is more lethal with a short bow instead?

Up to you really, imo the increased fire rate isn't worth the loss of range, but if you'd like to try, go for it.

xnightmythx · Jun 29, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Up to you really, imo the increased fire rate isn't worth the loss of range, but if you'd like to try, go for it.

Hmmm yeah, kind of a crappy trade off. I tried the Rot Farming in TOA. JI got spikes of 310 Damage! Some of the kills were almost 1 shot. First shot took 90% of their health, second shot finished them off. I love this Build!

Nightmyth

Desert Penguin · Jun 30, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

Holy Damage does ignore armor, at least from my experience. Judge's Insight is however, the exception to the rule. The reason it is the exception, is because of the 20% armor penetration. Now, if it did ignore armor, then 20% X 0 = 0, so you wouldn't notice anything at all.

That is not how armor ignoring works. When you ignore armor, you treat that foe's armor as 60 Armor all of the time, not 0 armor. A warrior has 80 armor vs elements, and 100 vs physical. An armor ignoring attack will ALWAYS treat that foe as having 60 armor.

60 armor is when base damage = actualised damage. 100 armor is half damage. 0 armor is almost triple damage.

As for Judges Insight. Your opponent has 60 armor regardless, and you penetrate 20% of that armor, meaning your foe has 48 armor, and if you have points into Strength (for warrior), the armor is lowered further, resulting in higher damage.

This website has a damage vs armor calculator. Use it and see how this works.

Sha Noran · Jul 01, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Penguin

When you ignore armor, you treat that foe's armor as 60 Armor all of the time, not 0 armor.

Uh... no? If it ignores Armor, it IGNORES the Armor. You're implying that Armor ignoring would give enemies with less than 60 Armor MORE armor when using Armor ignoring attacks. Just... no.

Kyosuki · Jul 01, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Your saying that Penetrating Attack/Barrage whit JI wont get the 20% Armor effect

It a joke...?i just learn to use this build,was really happy i bought a HornBow and all,bought all skills for build...and then i hear that JI Build dosent work...

audioaxes · Jul 01, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

i tested a while ago and have concluded that JI is a poor buff, if you arent fighting undead

xnightmythx · Jul 02, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

To be honest I don't know whether or not it does the AP that JI claims. All I know is it has been the most effective way to clear Undead in FOW I have ever experienced. To add to the confusion a bit, if you own a Horn Bow, which has inherent 10% AP, the question arises. Does that 10% stack with everything else? According to what I have read it seems the answerer is no. In order for AP to stack it has to have a "+" symbol in front of the AP number. For example, JI says +20% AP, while a skill like Penetrating Attack says 10% AP. Another example is 20/20 string. It claims +20% (chance 20%).

Ventius Hozza · Jul 02, 2006, 04:06 PM // 16:06

I'm sorry, if Judge's Insight meant that you had armor ignoring weapons... ehh overpower me please. Dual/Punishing already does 200+dmg on a 60AL target. Think about killing a rockshot devourer or an Aloe Seed with dual on it's own, but you at lvl20 with a max15^50bow. It would be WAY overpowered.

Mandids are the lowest enemies I could be bothered to find, so we're assuming that they have minimal armor, close to 0.

128+5 from one arrow of dual shot + 128+5 from the other theoretical arrow = 266dmg dual shot.

This, and the damage from Punishing Shot:

266+181+5 = 452 damage solo spike.

So, this is why Judge's Insight doesnt deal armor ignoring damage.

Mr_eX · Jul 02, 2006, 08:25 PM // 20:25

This is a really powerful build for farming FoW and other various places that have Undead (Rotscale anyone?) I'm really surprised more people don't know about it and it's not a big part of the cookie-cutter FoW party.

But yes, as others have said, there's an error in JI's skill description. JI changes your attacks to light damage, not holy damage. Light damage is the same as Chaos damage and Dark damage, in that no particular armor is strong or weak against it. It's neither physical nor elemental and gets past +AL vs physical and +AL vs elemental bonuses. However, Light damage has the same double-damage versus undead bonus that holy damage does.

Bottom line: Use this build when fighting Undead. Use a conjure elsewhere.

Sir Mad · Jul 03, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Oh yeah definitely - I used to mess op with JI with guildies in BP teams in FoW. With a +20 skelislaying bow, I used to deal 150 damage to a skeli impaler and 100 to a bone dragon. However unless you spend a lot of points in smiting prayers to increase the duration of JI (and you need those points for you primary attributes), it's very energy consuming.

On a side note, I think it may not be compatible with order of pain in BP builds since it converts you attacks to holy damages. That's definitely better vs skelettons but vs shadows?

Draxx · Jul 03, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I thought of this the other day,

but i included a Hornbow as it gives 10% Armor Penetration., dispite it sucking at everything else. a hornbow is the best way for this build.

(I may not read it correctly but i didnt see anyone mention a hornbow.)